Moulton goes home.

TJ [to ]: Moulton . . . We have a nice thing going here. Don't fuck it up. If you try, and you get caught at it, you'll be outta here. Isn't that simpler? doesn't sound very demigod like to me -- more devilish

Moonbeam blinks. "Who said that?"

TJ says "Howard said dat"

Moonbeam says "he did? where?"

TJ says "I'd have to go looking to find it again -- brb"

Moonbeam says "he said it on BS?"

TJ says "yeps"

TJ says "in "rules" i think"

TJ says "BS is running very slowly"

Moonbeam goes to Rules...

Moonbeam says "I haven't been there for about 3 days."

Moonbeam waits...

Moonbeam says "blank"

TJ says "it's an old post i think -- pre the contracts topic perhaps"

Moonbeam says "ah, finally....some stuff."

Moonbeam says "oh, he didn't say it to BARRY, then."

TJ says "i've lost the context at this point"

Moonbeam had no context. Just your statement.

TJ says "no -- not to Barry -- in fact he said some very nice things about Barry lately"

TJ says "about Barry being a former mentor of his"

Moonbeam says "yes, I'm reading them now, in Rules. ;)"

TJ says "Howard is headed for trouble though -- needs to find another social mechanism than playing demigod"

Moonbeam says "you know why he's doing this, yes?"

TJ says "why he is doing the control thing? . . . guess so"

TJ says "there are many ways to do it though"

Moonbeam says "Because of what happened to EMinds. This is *one way* to have a civil discourse guaranteed."

Moonbeam says "there are others, of course."

Moonbeam says "but at Howard's house, the social contract is simple: Be nice to each other or leave."

Moonbeam says "problem is, he shouldn't have to play policeman o' the house."

TJ says "he is setting himself up for a fall"

Moonbeam says "and he's setting himself -- right"

Moonbeam says "you took the words out of my mouth. ;)"

TJ stuffs words back into you :)

TJ says "brb -- need to tuck Anjy in"

Moonbeam munches them.

Moonbeam sends a hug to Anjy...

TJ delivered

TJ says "am back"

TJ says "have you less anxiety about the stuff we talked about earlier or just the same?"

Moonbeam says "I'm better about it now, I guess."

TJ says "not sure?"

Moonbeam says "I needed to talk about it -- I felt and still feel caught in a bind."

TJ says "?"

Moonbeam says "I pasted Kai's post here -- it's clear he suspects me."

Moonbeam says "and in fact, I *am* the leak."

Moonbeam says "so I have a problem with denying that, because I am not a liar."

TJ says "i did not see it -- perhaps it was when Anjy was at the machine trying to fix oceana"

Moonbeam says "/recall 500 mo*"

TJ says "will do"

Moonbeam says "I felt better when Patrice asked him about the double standard, and I repeated that question to him."

Moonbeam says "he hasn't answered yet."

Moonbeam says "but meanwhile, I decided not to *confess* to being the leak -- but if he has the balls to ask me outright, I won't deny it."

TJ says "YAY Patrice!!"

TJ says "you are not the only source of info"

Moonbeam says "I know. But I'm the easiest suspect in Hosts, by far."

TJ says "Kai is a good source of info"

Moonbeam says "he doesn't see that, of course."

TJ says "no, he doesn't, does he?"

Moonbeam says "and his specific question is, how did YOU know he had posted your e-mail in hosts?"

Moonbeam says "and Patrice's was, "Do Dave and Barry know you're posting their e-mail here, and do you have their permission to do so?"

Moonbeam says "so perhaps he will now have two suspects. ;)"

TJ says "maybe i can be creative -"

TJ says "let's see, what would be good . . ."

Moonbeam says "probably no rush on it now... ;)"

Moonbeam says "Patrice has added some intrigue for his brain to mull over."

TJ says "kewl"

TJ says "no scruples at all"

Moonbeam says "I keep checking back to see if he's replied in Hosts, but nothing yet."

TJ says "remember that he has logs"

Moonbeam says "logs of what? Pinyon? Oak? Pine?..."

Moonbeam strikes a match.

TJ says "logs of who checks what"

TJ says "in a nazi regime the ss will check those logs"

Moonbeam says "oh, right. It's OK. I've asked him a Q, so it's normal I'd be looking."

Moonbeam says "he's tangling with the wrong person if he expects me to sit down and shut up."

Moonbeam says "I just don't want to get kicked out of Utne before I'm finished doing this job, OR out of hosts."

Moonbeam figures it will eventually come to that, but will not make it easy for him.

TJ says "ya put yerself in a real problematic situation if ya go at it like that"

Moonbeam says "why?"

Moonbeam says "Because I expect I'll lose the battle but win the war?"

TJ says "it's the beginning of the "walking on eggshells" phenomenon"

Moonbeam says "I guess I don't see it that way."

Moonbeam says "but I'm listening to hear you explain it ..."

TJ says "takes the fun and productivity out of it when you have to be concerned about censorship or other peering"

Moonbeam scans back to see if she said she was worried about Kai censoring her.

Moonbeam says "nope"

TJ says "Angela just called for another blanket -- back now"

TJ says "perhaps confused word -- thaough that may happen too -- censure may be more like it"

Moonbeam says "is it cold there? It's only about 45 here."

TJ says "bout the same here"

Moonbeam brrrs.

TJ says "we tend to sleep with blanket year round -- except on the warmest of nights"

Moonbeam says "well, I am used to being the odd duck. I've defended the underdog all my life -- it's why I'm in journalism. The old 'give voice to the voiceless' thing."

TJ says "is there an end to the hosting on UC in sight for you?"

TJ says "of your own volition that is"

Moonbeam says "I will stay on as a host until this issue with Barry is resolved, unless I get fired."

Moonbeam says "there are obvious benefits for our side to having me there."

TJ says "I would guess that Kai wants to think that it *is* resolved"

Moonbeam says "oh, he does. But it's far from over."

TJ says "i think that the thread needs to end too . . . said that to Barry tonight"

TJ says "it's too much of a waste of potentially productive energy (more prod uses)"

Moonbeam says "the tit-for-tat argument is taking a lot of energy away."

Moonbeam says "and Barry won't win that one. The real issue is the control of intellectual property."

TJ nods in agreement

TJ says "and control of other things like access too"

Moonbeam says "and I'm continuing to post the basics of those arguments in other conferences, like Media."

Moonbeam says "it's amazing what people don't know."

TJ says "sure is!"

Moonbeam says "I mean, *I* don't know that much about it -- I just teach the rudiments in an intro class on online journalism."

Moonbeam says "and it changes constantly -- it's being duked out as we speak, daily."

TJ says "yep . . . and unfortunately we are part of the duking"

Moonbeam says "all the copyright and fair use clauses have to be tested for online uses."

Moonbeam says "yes, we are."

TJ says "the major battles have yet to be fought"

Moonbeam says "and that's a noble place to be. ;)"

TJ says "kai's battle is small potatoes"

Moonbeam says "there are only a few people on Utne who see that."

Moonbeam says "My issue, the thing that got me going tonight, is that I don't want the heat turned up under this pot so high that I have to climb out of it too soon."

TJ says "as I said to Barry tonight and perhaps in one of the email msgs i forwarded to you -- it's too bad kai (and others on phutne) don't have a sense of humor -- then the battle would not be so fierce"

Moonbeam says "yep"

TJ says "it would seem to me that he has to have substntiable reason AND the other hosts with him to dump you"

Moonbeam says "He could dump me without the other hosts concurring."

TJ says "he does not have either -- and the latter would seem tough to get unless the climate becomes even more unhealthy"

Moonbeam says "although he'd no doubt poll them."

TJ says "i'd guess that if he dumped any host without support from other hosts he'd have a massive evacuation on his hands"

Moonbeam says "many would likely support me -- a few have said publically that my support of Barry's issues, though they disagree, makes them respect me more."

TJ says "the ship would go down"

Moonbeam says "I think one of the reasons he's trying to cast doubt on me is so he can get support to dump me."

Moonbeam says "which he doesn't have now."

TJ says "maybe -- but i think he may be on a fishing expedition"

TJ says "i just wondered when i got those notes from kirsten if she was part of that expedition"

Moonbeam says "prolly 6 of one, half dozen of another..."

TJ says "she said no -- but i don't know that for sure"

Moonbeam says "Kirsten is a civil libertarian. Speaks her mind. She likes Kai as a host and has supported him, but she's supported me as well -- and I know her IRL."

Moonbeam says "and I know she has a lot of respect for me, both personally and academically."

Moonbeam says "so I don't suspect her of having hidden agendas."

TJ says "my jury is out -- but you support what she said herself"

TJ says "if kai is so interested that he is posting email then it would seem that he would tune into every avenue of information available to him"

TJ says "as long as his channels are open it might be time to pipe in disinformation -- though personally i think it's a waste of time and energy to do so ---"

Moonbeam says "he said he was mystified... same wordhe used when asking me earlier why I had posted Barry's e-mail in hosts."

Moonbeam says "coded message to me. Tells me I'm his prime suspect."

TJ says "gee maybe i could write you a note asking you for info and saying that some others have already helped but that i didn't want to take just their word for it ;)"

TJ says "then you could post that ;)"

Moonbeam says "if it comes to that... ;)"

TJ says "could send the same note to a couple of other host -- maybe everyone except Martin ;-)"

Moonbeam says "heh"

TJ says "wow I could be a real trouble maker!!!!!!!"

TJ says "am going to bed - 'night"

Moonbeam says "me too -- see you sometime tomorrow."

Moulton says "Do you guys know how profound that convo was after I went home?"

Moulton says "That convo you had last night w/ Mn after I went home was extraordinary."

TJ says "???"

Moulton says "See, I'm really a slowpoke in Politics."

Moulton says "And most political convos are about issues I barely pay attention to."

TJ says "what do you see in it -- don't think it was particularly engaging for either of us"

Moulton says "But you had a good solid political convo w/ Mn that was illuminating."

TJ says "hhhmmmmmm"

Moulton says "It's not just about the issues. It's about who raises them, where and when."

Moulton says "The Who/Where/When part never occurred to me as important."

Moulton says "Like Patrice piping up."

Moulton says "See, if *I* ask it, it's provocation. But not if Patrice asks the same Q in Hosts."

Moulton says "Also, the walking on eggshells was important to me."

Moulton says "That's the exact phrase I came up w/ to describe what it was like to be around Beth, whom I now understand was a master gatekeeper. But her ruleset had an empty feasible set."

Moulton says "After you map out all the rules, you discover they rule out everything except dropping dead."

Moulton says "Hence walking on eggshells feeling."

Moulton says "Mn saw the Tit-for-Tat methodology and identified it as energy draining."

Moulton says "And the academics factor out the issues and drop them into academic discussions, divorced of the examples at hand."

Moulton says "And Mn says Kai can dump at will."

Moulton says "And the Disinfotainment Meme is all Howard's too, and there it is, Dave, proposing to feed disinfotainment to Kai. :)"

TJ has arrived.

TJ says "Hi."

Moonbeam says "Hi."

TJ says "I hear that Kai bought the disinformation that Barry set up for him."

Moonbeam says "In fact, he unlocked the 'secret' utnebury files after the hack."

Moonbeam says "Yah, he apparently bought it hook, line and sinker."

Moonbeam says "Kicked me off Hosts."

TJ says "I wonder what other disinfotainment we can provide and Barry can post?"

Moonbeam says "Roxanna fed it to him and he bought it. Neither of them asked me or him what it was, or what it meant."

Moonbeam says "Heh. He may be flat on his back now, but he'll get this on scrollback eventually."

TJ says "Can bet on that. ;)"

TJ says "I wonder what juicy tidbits we can throw to Roxanthippe too. ;)"

Moonbeam ponders.

TJ says "I did hear via my source that she is 3rd on the list."

Moonbeam says "Third? Uh, who would be second?"

Moonbeam says "Third in line for juicy tidbits? Er what?"

TJ says "Well, you were first, then K."

TJ says "Wait till they find out who the real source of the *leaks* is. ;-)"

TJ says "But maybe we should just let them keep killing people off and doing the system in and not tell them who it is."

Moonbeam says "By then I should have my book in first draft at the publishers."

TJ says "Kewl!! I thought that was going to take a bit longer, but am happy to hear that you are on schedule!!"

Moonbeam should get a lot of it done while here.

TJ says "Did you clear with the editors how you will handle all of the names and identities?"

Moonbeam says "We'll follow the same protocol as Sherry Turkle and Howard Rheingold do in their books."

TJ says "That will blow poor Kaibosh out of the sky !!"

Moonbeam says "Truth is always shocking."

TJ says "So is disinfotainment apparently. ;-)"

Moonbeam says "Sometimes it's hard to tell them apart."

TJ says "sometimes . . . if you're an idiot. :)"

TJ says "Not hard if you know better though."

Moonbeam nods... "Most apparently don't."

TJ says "C'est la guerre."

TJ says "That's why we're educators, right? :)"

Moonbeam girds her loins for the edutainment battle.

TJ says "pfoof -- I know that a) you don't like to do battle, b) you are going to get knocked about a LOT, c) you don't deserve it, d) there are seemingly few other ways to get these jamopes to wake up and smell the coffee."

Moonbeam says "I've been 'dehosted' now -- so they can talk about me behind my back and sling accusations all they want."

Moonbeam says "I can't respond to them. Due process has been denied."

TJ says "But you knew the place was being run on a very inappropriate, shaky foundation to begin with."

Moulton says "Do you guys have anything to say about the ethics of using edutainment on idiots against their will?"

Moonbeam [to Moulton]: Oh, make up some words and put them in my mouth... they won't know the difference anyway.

TJ says "Ethics -- I thought that disinfotainment was ethical in war. ;)"